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Kelly Terbasket of IndigenEYEZ & kinSHIFT and Andrew Greer of Purppl share the story of how they met and how their relationship continues to evolve in the context of Indigenous-Settler dynamics. Kelly is an Indigenous woman who founded IndigenEYEZ to build leadership capacity in Indigenous changemakers and kinSHIFT to support Settlers in their truth and reconciliation journeys. Andrew is a settler who founded Purppl to support social entrepreneurs and impact leaders to build regenerative revenue and impact models. Theirs was a natural fit that others around them noticed before they did. Their beginning had a bumpy start, but their openness and courage provided a path for connection, growth and ongoing learning. Listen to their story to get insight into how to work towards building authentic relationships between Settlers and Indigenous people.

Show Notes

• Kelly Terbasket
• IndigenEYEZ
• kinSHIFT
• Andrew Greer
• Purppl
• Useful Books:
  • Braiding Sweetgrass, Robin Wall Kimmerer
  • Decolonizing Wealth, Edgar Villanueva
  • Indigenomics, Carol Anne Hilton
• pax't [pronounced almost like "puck"] literally translated, means, ‘to spark so as to cause to light’, as in striking a match, to mean to become mind-aware as a human. Knowledge is understood to be only a starting point for the human.” (Jeannette Armstrong, pg. 66. 1991, her thesis)

 

How you can participate?

Elements of Truth: Before Reconciliation

This 10-hour workshop series is rooted in Indigenous values. Guided by reciprocity, inclusion, curiosity, and humility, our learning journey unfolds over four weeks, with four powerful 2.5-hour sessions. Truth before reconciliation is an opportunity for all of us to learn from our past, to begin to step into our fuller potential in the present, and to re-imagine a better way forward together. Get ready for an informative, interactive, and impactful experience!

Register by clicking here (Use "QUESTIO10" get 10% off the cost of the workshop)

 

Transcript 

Jalen 

Well, I'm really excited to have you, Andrew and Kelly, and we're going to be talking about being in relationship, particularly the relationship between indigenous and settler organizations. And ultimately it's like I imagine indigenous and settler relationships, period. Right. Because it's more about the people involved and I want Kelly, if you would be willing to start us off with a story to help us ground. In the beginning of this journey that you were going to go on. 

Kelly 

I'd love to. Thank you, Jalen. Yeah, I've I remember how I was first told and learned about purple and Andrew. And through a mutual friend and justice encouraged quite a few times, you know, over over every time I saw this person, they're like, did you do? Did you make contact yet? So I was like, OK, OK. So I got online and I I was like awesome A1 day workshop. That's perfect. So, but I remember reading the poster thinking. Wow, this looks like it's for business people because it's like social enterprise and social enterprise associated it as like. Business is not me. I couldn't see myself in that poster. And but because I was nudged, I went. And so this is where I first. Met met Andrew. He was facilitating this workshop. And introduced to the work of purple and what attracted me was that I had been running indigenized for a while, and I. You know, I was like, just always feel like we're spinning our wheels. We're not getting a solid foundation with our funding. You know, it's like, so I need to have more of a business approach, sustainable funding revenue, so. The some of the words on the poster attracted me to that and knowing your impact and stuff. So yeah, so that got me to the room. And then when I was in the room, I just remember looking around as you do as a person of color, as an indigenous person, you always scan the room. Is there anyone here that? Anyone else as indigenous? Is there any other people color other intersectionalities it was pretty pretty minimal, so how I enter that space is really like peripheral like OK just be careful, kind of like you got your back. To the wall. You know, you're like, really. Not quite, but you know, kind of the essence of very careful guarded and. So that was our first introduction. I don't know if you want to say anything else, Andrew, to your memories of that day. But that's kind of how I entered into our my first memories. 

Andrew 

Thanks for recounting that somewhat painful memory. As Kelly shared, we were actually both encouraged to meet each other by the same folks a few times, and in some of the same kind of feelings, but slightly different. I was intimidated when, when to speak with Kelly. You know a. Powerful, successful indigenous leader I was. I was nervous. And that kind of got in the way I was facilitating this workshop. Kelly came in right, right near the end, just before it started. And you know, I'm in the mode of trying to make sure everything's like getting started. Right. And I didn't think for a moment about how she might be feeling. I didn't recognize or. Facilitate for any different experience that she was having. And I think my nervousness even got in the way of trying to start a relationship because I was already intimidated by this powerful, successful indigenous woman. I'm just like, oh ****, I'm a settler and a white male. Like, I'm kind of the bad guy in the room. I was already feeling kind of shame about. Just the historic wrong, not even historic. The what I've now learned current wrongdoing. Of folks like me and that immediately got in the way of like even having a nice, pleasant like hey, nice to meet you kind of conversation. 

Kelly 

Whenever you share that, I just like. I'm like, I had no idea you were going through all that. I yeah. I just felt like, oh, he's up there facilitating and doesn't notice me or, you know, it's like. 

Andrew 

Yeah, I I was pretty comfortable in the facilitation role, but pretty uncomfortable in the like, let's build a sensible relationship. It was, yeah, I was intimidated. I'm sure I came across as a bit distant and cool. Well, which is the opposite of what I wanted, but. Specifically with Kelly. 

Jalen 

And how did that journey continue? 

Kelly 

Well, I'm trying to think of what I I remember when I left that that workshop, because, like, not only, you know. I didn't feel like, you know, connected or Andrew and I didn't form a connection there, but I just remember feeling like I was not not a sense of belonging. Like I didn't have a sense of like, these are my people. I was very inspired at the concept of social enterprise. Where I was like, oh, OK, it's not not in this box of business, but it's like it's people like me who want to make a difference in the world and want to make a living out of that. Wow, powerful, beautiful. That's very in alignment with indigenous ways of being annoying. I left with that, but I didn't feel connected to the people at my table. It was just kind of like I'm going to go in as I do with my guard on very extractive, get what I need and leave. And I did. I got a great framework, really good information and so. I'm trying to remember how what the next step I think it was, that proposal, wasn't it, Andrew? 

Andrew 

I reached out to you next. I had put some money together locally in the Okanagan to support coaching for social entrepreneurs. That that's the work of purple. The primary work of purple is to have long term coaching and collaboration. Relationships with folks like Kelly who are building sustainable social enterprise and impact organizations. And so we put this money together and in a lot of ways we can in. Some good ways and some potentially dangerous ways we can influence, like where the money goes and this is in some ways it's good because the funders are keeping their hands off the money and they sort of give us lots of ability to go and say you go find organizations that would be sort of folks to participate in this coaching. Program so I I reached out to Kelly and said, hey, we've got a bit of money to significantly subsidize some work together. Would you consider applying for this and that like what I've learned now that that sort of like way of approaching it was really colonize? And I I didn't even really think about that kind of like power dynamic that like I've got the money. Do you want a bunch of it to subsidize some work together and? I didn't even think about it. 

Jalen 

Because that's so common in in settler culture, right? I've got money come. Beg for it. 

Andrew 

Pretty much, yeah, pretty much. 

Kelly 

Well, and yeah, using that word, you know it, it's. Felt like it was very intimidating. The application process at that time was a panel and so and a PowerPoint. And I just, you know, it's so hard to find time as a leader of a social enterprise, as you know, running, I facilitate, I manage a team. I you know, I have like so many hats. So I was. Like, oh, another layer. Another thing to do so. That was that felt overwhelming. But I could see the value in working with purple after that one day workshop for sure. And so I went. I did it. And it was a very hard experience being in that room, sitting up there in the front with this panel of were they all white? Andrew, that's my memory. Feels like they were. 

Andrew 

All white, I don't recall, but I expect so. 

Kelly 

And just, you know, had a very short period of time, which is hard for me. And I think for indigenous people, we're storytellers we. The way we communicate, and this is not a like a stereotype, not everyone does, but like it's very common that the way we share what matters to us and share is more story format. And so I think I only got 20 minutes or something and I was like. I don't know how to tell the amazing impact of indigenize in 20 minutes. That's one story. So that was the whole experience, was very intimidating, is what my from my memory. But I was successful. So that's how our relationship continued with some. I was chosen as one of the funded projects. 

Jalen 

So at what point did you feel like it started shifting in a more quote positive direction? 

Kelly 

I think that. When Andrew asked to meet with me in person and we had to walk and. That sounds out like we we walk together and you know, like shared story, yeah. 

Andrew 

I our first in person I we we had a short walk and then met and then had coffee at a shop in Penticton and the starting point of that conversation I asked you about Coyote. 

Kelly 

Right. And I I do think that that's when I started noticing. Like you were, you had obviously a bit of knowledge like you were like. Using like seal instead of generalizing indigenous and there's certain things that you notice when you're indigenous of like. That is where you kind of know where the person's at. So there was a few more signs I remember in that in that encounter where I was like, OK, He's Andrew has definitely been trying to learn and making an effort. Yeah. Not really shifted for me when you know the the personal where I got to know you as a person, not just. This, you know, white male settler in a you know, so that those power differences that are at play in our relationship, you know, started to equalize a little bit like started to shift through sharing personal stories. Huge, you know, learning about your family. 

Andrew 

And Peaches. 

Kelly 

Oh, yeah. That was also huge too. I was like, I don't know if you know, if you just instinctively did that, but that is very big for, you know, building relationship with indigenous people is. Is, UM, you know, gift, especially something that you worked at. Doing like you can those Peaches and the salsa and yeah. So it's like not something just bought at the store and gave it to me like it was very meaningful. 

Jalen 

What I'm noticing is that what we're talking about here is like real relationship building, right? And that's something that, you know, I think it does exist in settler culture, but not necessarily always so much in business. And is that I'm wondering if that's one like one of the things that's that's different is that, that, that the, the personal is it is far more front and center in all the indigenous experience? 

Andrew 

So we've been, we've been talking about that, Kelly and I a little bit lately in actually trying to bridge more. Professional or work relationships into personal relationships and we didn't really start that way. That is for sure that we are coming around that way. But certainly at the start I didn't have that intention. Mind you know, broadly speaking, I was focused like a little bit on diversity and reconciliation and these those were like the big buzzwords that were driving some of my behavior and desire it. It came from more of a personal place than than that really. My sort of journey into this kind of work started with climate change and I quick like got into that sort of movement and reading and learning. And you you can see if you dig into it, especially here in British Columbia. That indigenous people are very powerful in the climate movement actually because a lot of the land is unseated and there has to there, there's actually significant power. And so, from an allyship perspective, if we want anything to happen around climate, indigenous indigenous people and nations and communities. They're in in a very powerful position. I was like, OK, let's go. Let's go learn about this and see about this. And so I felt for a long time that it was kind of shallow. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of like a climate warrior and. You know, I feel some alignment with indigenous folks, but I I've come a long way in learning that what's good for indigenous people is good for all and really settled into. It's OK to have mutual interests, and it's OK to actually enjoy protective and respectful relationships together that are mutually beneficial and it it doesn't have to. Feel transactional and so, but but that's not where it started. Jalen, to your point and to some of Kelly's experience, when we started, coach. And I just like paired Kelly up with a couple of our coaches and didn't think for a second that a couple of coaches might be intimidating. We were often working with a single coach with a single person and so that one-on-one relationships create creates trust faster generally, but here I. Here I was like. Ohh, I'll add another person that would be. Good. Meanwhile it was. Like not the right experience for Kelly. I didn't even think about the intimidation of the power dynamic. Thankfully, it was Kelly kind of saw past and could see a few of those signs that I was like trying. But it was a not a good start. It was definitely like a transactional business relationship to start... to your point. 

Andrew 

And Kelly actually started to share about this cause she could see we were trying a little and shared that we could take some race equity training. So right away we did, Kelly. We signed up for some workshops with Kelly and her team. That was even from a transactional relationship perspective that that was important. Because it at least then became a reciprocal transactional relationship like Kelly was paying taxes, our coaching service, and we were paying to access some workshops and race equity trains. And so it at least it became a bit shared at that point, and our eyes were really opened to the implicit a bunch of implicit bias that we could. We could then see and microaggressions that we could see, and lots that we still don't see, of course. But that was a that was a, I think, a really pivotal shift. In our relationship is that at least became a bit reciprocal, not necessarily moving out of a business relationship yet, though. 

Kelly 

I just want to add something just because I really think it's important for settlers to know that. The diversity of indigenous peoples lived experience and where the where our positionality so my positionality like I am mixed heritage. I have grown up in both my settler. Family, which is fifth generation German and English. And my indigenous family. So I moved back and forth and so they call this code shifting. So I learned how to survive or how to function within both both cultures and lived realities and. Could move back and forth and so that makes it. Possible for me to go into an organization like purple and be transactional, get what I need learn like I knew that I was very valuable learning and and not be relational just but many other indigenous people. You don't have the background that I have. They can't. They can't and should not be. We should not expect indigenous people to code shift or people of color in general, right? That's not the goal, but I'm just saying I was able to even get as far in our relationship because of that because of my experience with that and so. And other like other indigenous people, would not have been able to do to even be in that relationship. So I just wanted to point that out because I think that the benefit of the learning that we had, Andrew. With purple is because we even made it as far as we did because of who I am. And then we bridged it to OK now like now, Andrew, I think that you and your team need to learn. From some other indigenous people on our team. And so that started moving towards expanding your learning. 

Andrew 

We both agreed. We need to expand past the two. 

Jalen 

Of us sounds like there's this pivotal moment where you started the relationship became more reciprocal and that started hitting things in a in a direction that they. That's that's taking you to where you are now. But like what? What? Was what's that journey been from that pivot point to now? 

Andrew 

The pivoting has gone a few different ways, or the shift has gone a few different ways. We we started some paying for our team to join INDIGENIZE workshops to when when they start on our team they are offered to join in to upcoming workshops with indigenous to to. Help sort of like. Have broadened the knowledge and awareness across our team, in particular, that was that was an important commitment for us to make an an ongoing commitment. It's there's not, there's not an end date to that. It's just like, hey, if you're new. On the. Team you, you need to make time for this. And would pay for it. So that that was his ash shift. We also had one of our team members really get involved. Well, all a few of us got involved alongside Kelly and her team to. To launch some workshops publicly and we I I think that was like where it started to turn in in a lot of ways like professionally personal with Kelly we we started working together her and I in particular on trying to launch something that was really to build a new revenue stream for indigenize. Neither of us could do. It alone. So we we agreed to work together and I didn't really know what we were saying yes to. And Kelly didn't know what, really, what she was saying yes to or asking for. But we just kind of like journeyed into it. And it wasn't something that would stand up for purple. It was really just. This is what Kelly was working on. And I knew we had some capacity to help. And so we just did really whatever, and that turned into helping sell workshops. That helped. We were helping to collect revenue and deal with bookkeeping. We were setting up event rates like managing inbound inquiries. It was like all this kind of like back end work to help make sure these workshops launched. Well, yeah, we didn't really know what we were getting into, but it really turned into something that we did together as opposed to, like, we were coaching Kelly, which was like, again, that kind of like power over dynamic and that's that. We sometimes can't really escape. This was something that was really the opposite. 

Kelly 

And the collaboration really, when I look back to the trainings, the workshops that we've. Launched like we just didn't have the people power to get that going on our own and some of the experience, some of the things that, you know, purple has already well established. So it like really worked well to work together on that. And that's where for me my relationship. My trust. I felt more trust and authenticity and Andrew and in purple because I'm like, OK, now I've moved from a. To we're going to do this together. We're doing this. You know, partner to partner collaboration here, so. Yeah, I think that shift of like we have the answers and you know you know kind of like old school teacher. You know, we have the knowledge and answers and and being really like client driven is one of the things I value. About purple and the work that. We're doing but like. UM. Meeting us where we're at and and and taking our guidance like this is what how we see it and how can we support you versus the other way around. I felt it started feeling authentic. That's where I really like was like, OK, yeah, this is. This is more than a client relationship. 

Jalen 

It sounded like there was a real clear investment in the well-being of of your organization, so like there's some level of organizational intimacy between the two. Right. Which then my experience often, you know, breeds a level of of understanding of each other that allows to generate more, more success, whatever that means. Curious what is there anything in particular that started showing up out of that deepening deepening of relationship that not just between the two of you but between your two organizations? 

Kelly 

Well, I know. UM, this is one of my favorite words that I've probably shared with both of you that like, what ignited for me was hope. Because what? What showed up for me is like we had this first of all, huge success, huge success. Like it worked out. So that always that. Always makes helps the relationship. 

Andrew 

And working out like. Were some of the traditional working out it. Just like new revenue for indigenize, some of that resulted into a new full time hire for indigenize like increased capacity, lots of learning. So there's some of like the traditional kind of working out bits that that you would hope for in a social enterprise? 

Kelly 

Mm-hm. 

Andrew 

But please carry on about the hope and and where else it took us. 

Kelly 

Yeah, well, I remember Andrea, a very specific conversation that stands out from all our conversations. Because another thing that's really been awesome is that Andrew and I meet once. A month to talk for relationship building and. We jam out. It's just it's awesome and that's not part of like the coaching relations for anything. It's to organizations who want a vision and dream together and do stuff together. So so. But I remember this one conversation in particular, Andrew, because it was right in the middle of so much despair. You probably remember which one. And we were having like, another flood fire. We're in the middle of the lockdown. COVID lockdown. And I think the two churches that got burnt here on our in our nation like just, you know, they the findings of the children at the residential schools. We're starting to just so much heavy despair like, you know, it's so easy to feel overwhelmed and. And Andrew and I were having one of our monthly calls and I remember saying like. This, you know, I don't feel like despair because I could be and I think it's because we're planning and we're dreaming and we're we're doing things together and, you know, even though those things don't impact those bigger systemic patterns. Directly, but we're doing what we can within our organizations and the collaboration, the relationship dreaming together feels like it inspires more hope. I just remember that moment so clearly I'm like. I do believe that when we work together and we're doing things, you know, towards a shared vision. It helps us keep that mobilization. It keeps the momentum and the hope, which is essential. 

Andrew 

Yeah, that was a particularly low day. We were. We met in person for for that conversation and. It was like. Disgusting day like Smokey couldn't see across the lake. It was hot and here we were were like feeling hopeful because we were working together. 

Jalen 

It's beautiful. I like to pull out some of the lessons, the pearls that Kelly, you've already mentioned. A number of them, sellers and seller companies can pay attention to, but I'm wondering about you, Andrew, do you have any lessons that come to mind that would be make things easier for others? 

Andrew 

Yeah, don't stop. That's the start. I think the biggest one is that it's a relationship. My that is the biggest one. Being in relationship with Kelly and expanding that to other indigenous folks who have helped. With some of these learnings and teachings. That is, that is the one I I used to think that the goal was reconciliation and that's kind of the pressure you get in, in the kind of business environment these days is like. Do something about diversity, equity, inclusion, reconciliation and you, you kind of get guided into whether you want to or not. Workshops and trainings and build a reconciliation plan. And while those things are important, there's sort of two things that really popped out of it for me that took a long time to sort of. Like pull out was. Like reconciliation is is the wrong target for me in particular anyways and and I expect for others too. And it's the relationship that should be the the. Goal because if we have relationship then we can do things together. We can achieve change. We can find hope. It's much more likely that we can achieve some of those things that might be on reconciliation checklist or. Again, that like we we we are unlikely to achieve those things outside of relationship. We have to be in relationship and like trust respectful relationship and we can have some fun along the way that that that was like a a nice like shift of it like I think a lot of settlers come into this work feeling. Shame and about what has happened and what is continuing to happen like the terrible, terrible things that are continuing to happen to indigenous folk. And being in relationship can change that you get friends you get. Hope you get you can both benefit from the relationship and maybe we'll get reconciliation. Maybe, but at least we'll have a nice relationship the whole way along. 

Kelly 

Andrew, one of the things that really stands out for me and that I think that can be helpful for other settlers who are learning how to be in better relationship. With indigenous peoples is. That one of the reasons why it's so important to to not only learn through books through saying the right thing, that getting that land acknowledgement down or being politically correct and having all the right words or even behaviors, you know. Like what? Sounds about for me. You were learning about how to make space. You know, the agreement takes space or make space. So if you have more privilege and power in a space, you know, like depending on your positionality like step back, give space for those marginalized voices. So this is one of the teachings that more and more people are coming to know. But on the other hand. Stepping so far back that you're not saying anything can then become like a silent bystander. Right, so it took. It took being in spaces with us being in relationship with indigenous people who are willing to do that emotional labor to give you that feedback to say when you show up that way in space and you totally step back. That does how it lands for me. I know your intention was good, but the impact is. I felt like you were just being a silent bystander, not doing any of the emotional labor, and you're not. You're not being an active participant in this relationship. 

Andrew 

Building. Yeah, and the learning. And had was around that teaching was that I was making space, but I wasn't taking any and. I was nervous to take any space because of the positionality I come into this with and found out through a lot of learning that. And and getting called in was that I do have a welcome place in this work and in these relationships and and if I'm going to show up, I actually have to give an offer. And sometimes take the first step because it's unlikely that. Someone's just going to like, hand me the right first step or or a next step even, whether it's forward or backward and and I can't just show up and wait and listen all the time. If I do such that I'm just there. To consume the. Knowledge and the learnings as opposed to also give. And by just by not taking any space by being silent and and a consumer of of the relation. Ship at best, I'm enabling status quo and at worst I'm perpetuating ongoing harm like silence is deafening. More deafening than speaking up and and that's more harmful than actually taking a missed step. Often times the the the missed step that is like. It's less harmful than not taking a step, and so I I saw I I continue to see and learn like my intention was so different than the impact of my behavior. As you point out, and and to your to to that teaching or lesson Kelly of make space takes space, I have to take some. I'm I'm in rooms. I mean conversations where sometimes I'm. The only white male. And it's it's like harmful or intimidating sometimes for an indigenous person to to speak up. Whereas I can. And the harm that is likely to come, that might come from me for speaking up is honestly mostly a myth. I'm not going to get harmed by speaking up. 

Kelly 

Awesome. Thank you, Andrew. And I I want to add to that like the courage it takes to make mistakes is what is going to move us forward. I think that's partly why a lot of people totally keep fully stepping back, thinking that that's doing is a better. That's better at building relationship than taking up all the space as the status quo, right? But also being willing to be in that dance. Right. It's it's there's no clear path, right. We're all learning and being willing to make mistakes is the way forward. And so that takes humility and courage. And that's what you know, that's what I've been seeing in UM, in our relationship and our partnership between our organization is that courage and patience like things are going slower because we have to do that relational work. I've noticed that in another partnership where it's like. Wanting it to go fast and not wanting to do this extra work, hard work of working through hard stuff. And it's the next commitment. I just want to share one more. Quick thing you know around. It's not that hard to. Invite in and make space for, you know, indigenous knowledge and wisdom, people that are in the circle. It's something simple sometimes, like, hey, Kelly, what do you think? Do you do you want to share? You don't have to. But what do? You think about that because it's really hard as the communication patterns, the tempo. We have cultural differences on the tempo of our communication, so. Like more indigenous people are used to waiting for. A space to speak. And like in many settler spaces, there are no spaces. You have to interrupt. You have. To jump in and push. Your way in there and. That's so like culturally rude. And so, uhm, if you're going to make space for. Other cultural voices, other voices of all cultures, but especially indigenous peoples, voices like slow the tempo down if it's going fast, like try different way to have run the meeting or the communication ask they ask for opinion and Biden. So I just wanted to add that too as something that's been that's important that you can only learn in relationship with each other. 

Andrew 

And we have so much to learn. 

Jalen 

Yeah, absolutely. That's something that's become really apparent to me as I'm listening to the two of you, I'm talking. Thinking about like the the. The challenge and the. Or the courage and vulnerability to to go through this process of learning. It seems to me that if they weren't for real, if the relationship weren't, weren't there. I wonder if it would have happened. You know, I feel like the relationship is something as a as a container that can that can hold that, whereas you may not feel like Andrew, you may not feel this the same freedom to, like, make mistakes if you didn't have relationship and know that you know there was. Room for that. 

Andrew 

And experiencing respectful relationships gives me more courage to make mistakes earlier in other relationships that we're building now. So in so many ways, Kelly and our you have. Really enabled me to continue to learn. Wise practices learn what not to do. Learn what to do with others. Faster because of your generosity inside our relationship. 

Jalen 

I feel like we're found a place of of closing at this point and I'm just wondering if there's any last thoughts you'd like to share as we close out. 

Kelly 

Part of the reason that I invited or asked if you'd be open to having both of us on this interview is. Is because really exemplifying the main point of it is that for us to learn and understand, deepen our understanding. You know, shift our ways of knowing and being it's in relationship, it's our we have a word in our language called pax't [ed. pronounced almost like "puck"]. Pax't means the spark that comes from being in relationship with others — like the tension between our diverse thoughts and opinions and ideas. So that spark, the pax't, is like the enlightenment. And the better we get as humans at being in relationship with each other, the more pax't we're going to have — the more enlightenment — the more we're going to continue to deepen our understanding and know how to move forward to create a better future, and be better ancestors for our people to be. 

Andrew 

I'm going to have to learn that word, pax't the spark, Jalen. You asked about some of the resources internally and externally to include like in the podcast links. I think it's really important to include the links for Kelly's for indigenous upcoming workshops that can, can shifts, upcoming workshops? Those are those are some of those starting points are are good starting point. For lots of people. Yeah, some of the other, uh, kind of readings that have been helpful over the last few years along this journey. There were two. They're really kind. Of, well, three that really kind of got me started on it, like braiding sweet grass I'm sure has come up in other podcasts as as an important listen or or read some a little bit more specific in kind of like social enterprise and social sector, there's one called. Winners take all, which was a really humbling read for anyone in the social change movement. Identifies or presents as white. It's a pretty humbling read. There was sort of like some follow on reading recommended in there a book called Decolonizing Wealth, and it really is about like indigenous wisdom in wealth and really seeing how that can be used to. Sort of put some balance back into wealth because it's deeply unbalanced, so those those ones have come up time and again in this kind of. Movement and then another really important read that might have come up, in particular around the Pacific Northwest is indigenous pics by Caroline Hilton that that's been a like an inspiring read about the power of indigenous entrepreneurs and and indigenous social entrepreneurship. It's the fastest growing kind of segment of entrepreneurship in Canada. And billion dollar industry like and most people are ignoring it. 

Jalen 

I want to thank the both of you for showing up for each other and also for the listeners and to share your journey, because I think that, you know, Kelly and I have been talking about how we can tell a story that will help others understand. And it seems like there's like the two of you sharing your stories. Probably a great start, and thanks for taking the time. 

Kelly 

Thank you. I really like your questions and thanks for holding this conversation with us. 

Andrew 

Yeah. Thank you.