small business | 

Show Notes

• Vichi Jagannathan
• Rural Opportunity Institute
• Offor - The Talent Broker Company

 

Transcript 

Jalen 

Vichi, we were talking before about your journey with your project. And one of the topics that came up was the idea of being a boss. Like so many times, you know, we hear in our culture this sort of statement. "I did it like a boss...” and like this this huge. Like that's a status symbol... you're rocking it. And being a boss is a lot of different things, and so I'm curious about why this is a topic that you're really wanting to talk about. 

Vichi 

Share it's interesting because I think a lot of the other connotations of boss. It's like ohh you know, for me, founding my own business, you know, having a lot of early success raising money. Like those things all happened for me in our organization early on and it you. Know we were. It felt to me like on a really good path, and I think the logical next. Step in my mind was like. OK. We're growing. We have more resources. We're having impact. Let's hire more. So that we can do more of this. Initially, basically you know, I think the thing that I wanted to kind of touch on here is just that I I think the skills that I had built and learned in order to start and grow a business aren't necessarily the same ones that you need to hire and manage people and help them grow and I. Totally underestimated that. And so I think for me, this idea of. Of getting people excited and finding people who were aligned to our work and wanted to work for us. That part happened. And so the first couple of jobs that we posted, there's a lot of interest and people, the people that I interviewed, I was very humbled by how how much they believed in the work that we were doing. I think the part that I didn't anticipate. As people you know got into the jobs that they were hired for and got more and more excited very often, I and my colleagues would, you know, keep giving them new projects and new things and like, OK, why don't you try this? Why don't you buy that and we weren't. Really supporting people. To build the skills that they need to be successful in those new projects. And after a while, you know things just got really messy. And so I think the reflection it. Like we were, I was really excited to hire and we did that really quickly and we had some very committed people on board, but just totally was not equipped to support them. And I I suspect that that happens for a lot of business centers and they're really going, yeah, being that kind of boss. Might actually require quite a different skill set, and I think that's something that I'm now starting to think about. Like how do I build that for myself before trying to be a solid employer for others? Could you? 

Jalen 

Take us back to a moment in time that. Kind of is. Like a an epitome of. Of the pain point there like that, that the challenge that you experiencing in the moment when. You thought oh. God, this isn't this isn't. Going the way I thought. It was going to go. 

Vichi 

I have a really specific it is really like a specific memory that comes to mind. One of these folks that we had hired early on her role was sort of a lot of cord behind the scenes coordination of different programs we're doing. She crushed that and she got really interested and excited about the programs himself. And asked I think, oh, you know, could I organize one? Could I organize one in the community and run for a specific idea that she was excited about and kind of without thinking? I was like, yeah, sure, go for it. You know, like you should have the opportunity to be in these leadership positions. And so she, you know, did all the planning. I have some amount of visibility into it. Hosted the event and then I remember it was on like a Friday and I talked to her on Monday and said Ohh by the. Way how did the event go? And she was like, oh, actually, you know, only one person showed up. So it's kind of a bummer we had, you know, I had bought all this food and booked this space and had some other people come in to help support. And then we just had the one person but you. Know I had a great conversation with. But you know, wasn't exactly what I expected. And I mean. One I remember thinking, Yikes, that's not the best outcome for that event, but I also from that when I look back on it now from that day onwards, there was a ship. In this persons whole demeanor towards our work, it was like she had always been excited and proactive and after that I could tell it was more like, OK, let me just like get in and do my responsibilities and go and not take any more research chances. That really was the sort of the end. Like shortly after that. You know, she ended up leaving and. And yeah, in reflection I just thought if I could have supported her or if we could have set her up better for something like that and more gradually build up to running an event like that all on her own, I would suspect that she eventually could have been in the position of doing those things, but instead it was just kind of like, you're excited, go do this thing. And then when it didn't go well, none of us. 

Jalen 

What decisions or choices did you? Make after that that sort of have. You been able? To shift that that approach or that your experience around that. 

Vichi 

Yeah, it's a good question. Question we are getting there. I would say I haven't learned not haven't learned as quickly but it just has so many layers like so one of the things I've tried to do differently is get clearer about the growth trajectory for a role. So rather than just saying OK, right now we're hiring for. A person to do. These three things also thinking like in a year. What might they end up having to do? Maybe in three years would do we want. Do we hope that they stay? And if so, what would they grow into? And then you know, either I think it's a balance either trying to find candidates who already have a lot of those skills so they could, you know, more easily move up through those stages or. Ensuring that we have a plan. In place to build those skills, maybe it's sending somebody to a training or partnering them with some sort of mentor. And I think there there are now like for example, one success story. We hired a great director of operations. She has been amazing and recently we've been talking about. Openly with her. Like what do the steps look like to transition to Chief operating Officer but? Not, you know. But I think he passed me. Would have been like, oh, you're excited about that role. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. You know, let's just change. Your job title in six months and give you. All those responsibilities because you're. Crushing the current role you have. But now we're actually going through and saying, OK, what new skills would you need to build to succeed in that role? And, you know, we're pairing over the coach, getting some training. And then we have a timeline of OK by, you know, an 18 months or whatever it is. If you hit these milestones. We will transition to. This role, and that's been me a because we. Have a kind of plan in place to build something that we already know into that role, but also I feel. The director of operations approaches the work differently, knowing that they're getting this opportunity to grow and advance, whereas if they were to take another job, they may, you know, it may or may not work out the same way. 

Speaker 

Well, it sounds. 

Jalen 

Like you're finding a way yourself or you and some others to make a transition from. Initially you talked about, you know, the skills that were needed in order to to get the organization going are different than them to maintain it, which is. That is so common, and it's so common. Because they're very, very different skill sets. Sounds like you're finding a way to make a transition to sustain a business. And is that something that you have done mostly on your own or like how did you, how have you? 

Vichi 

Been advocating that that there is a good way to characterize kind of where we are in development. So I I'm fortunate to have a co-founder Seth. And so Seth and. And started rural opportunities to together and then now that was 2017. And so now we're a full Time Team of four with some additional part time staff. So that's like some of. Our growth, but yes, I. Mean I think one way we've. Made the transition is the hard way and sort of making some mistakes like the ones I described. You know we. We obviously saw the need to over trying to realize that two of us weren't going to be able to continue to. Operate when we had started and the logical thing was like we hire people. So I think we recognized the stage. But like I said, underestimated. Just all the things that it requires, and not just in terms of hiring. Actually, in a lot of other areas as well, what has started to work now that we've realized that is. Partnering for a short amount of time with. Experts who have led that type of transition before, and it's actually surprising the number of folks who have a ton of skills are in oftentimes executive leadership at their jobs, who are interested and willing to do a couple of hours of consulting with nonprofit or small business like ours. So we've started to kind of use our networks to say. Who is who? People know that is awesome at hiring. You know, the first couple of executive buyers for start up and from asking that question we got connected to this amazing talent Consulting Group who almost explicitly does. Early stage executive hires for nonprofits and social enterprises, and in we probably did no more than 10 coaching sessions with them. And they, you know, it's funny. You're like, oh, how will we resolve this? And they're like. Well, I've actually closed 50 organizations to this process. So this is what you could do. You know, she was able to show us job descriptions for directors and chief operating officers. She's able to help us see whether the skill gap she could introduce us to people that. Can build those skills. She connects us to other organizations that are in the same stage, who can tell us about their. And so it's really been now that we see it kind of recognizing that although we may not. Have the expertise. There's a lot, lot, lot. Of people who have already been. Through this and they are. 

Jalen 

It's amazing. 

Vichi 

What is this group? Yeah. So the talent group is called O four OFOR and the specific consultant we work. With is Regina. They yeah, they're super neat. They are. I think in all women of color team, or at least majority and so not only are they excellent at hiring, but they're also really helpful about equitable hiring. They helped us, you know, get a broad pool of folks. They helped us with compensation policies and how to make that fair. So yeah, just like a ton of. 

Jalen 

It says something, an incredible resource. And so do you find that with the benefit of these people that this, this insight and consulting that you and your partner are growing yourselves laterally in into these roles or are you looking to just get them filled by other people? 

Vichi 

I am realizing that you know one person or two. People just cannot. We cannot do it all. And one of the things I can't remember who said it, but we talked about it a lot in the talent space is just understanding what people zone of genius is and really doubling down on that instead of trying to. Become a genius in everything and so. Particularly for people who start an organization, I think. That's a very specific. Zone of genius. Like there's some specific things that you need to be good at to do that, and they aren't really. That well suited to a lot of other aspects of business and so in the short term, I think Seth and I are. You know, trying to fill in the gaps like OK, we need to make these first few hires. Let's figure out how to do that. And you know, let's figure build some skills and managing folks. And get better at. That, but I think ultimately the goal would be to cultivate internally or find people who that's their genius and they're interested in working with us and it's like, let's put them in place. Have a team around us of just geniuses at different things. And then you know, it doesn't have to all depend on me and him. We have some role to play. But then how? Do we equip? The you know OPS geniuses and talent geniuses and marketing and all that to grow into those roles, to build out our org. So that's the vision we are obviously not quite there. But I think knowing. That also has helped us shift a little from. Not just looking for people who are excited to work. With us, but really trying to find. And folks who have zones of genius in the areas that we most need support. 

Jalen 

You've worked with before. To find some of those people and establish what some of the pathways were to that. Get them. Get those people in place, leaning on them as well to try to get a sense of, like, well, how to how to chart your way forward in terms of building out your staff. 

Vichi 

Yeah, they've been super. That's kind of the conversation. We're currently having with them actually. One of the things that's been interesting to. Think about is. And and this is related to the talent managing piece is a lot of times in management structures. You end up with like CEO's or or those type of level people who are expected to be good at managing people and very good at strategy or execution of the area. So your chief marketing officer is supposed to be awesome at marketing strategy and also awesome at managing other marketing professionals. And in speaking with our four and. Also just in our. Own reflection? I think that is very. Rare and even Seth and I in reflection are realizing we're not that great. We could build the skills, but we're not that. Great at managing. People, we're pretty strong at organizational strategy. We've been able to obviously create a business model and grow. That, but that doesn't really get all overlap with what it takes to coach people. And So what we've been talking about a bit with O4 and just in general is could you build an org chart where? Those roles are actually separated out, so potentially there is a team of people that do strategy work and their support to other people in the organization that is around strategy and problem solving. But there's also O 4 calls it or they you know when we talk with them, they call it an integrator, like a person whose job. Is more specifically on the people side, and they aren't necessarily providing strategic guidance to folks or, you know, working with them whiteboarding a project, but they are keeping track of their growth, helping them meet their. Goals setting the culture and the feel and having an ear to the ground in terms of like how are people progressing? And feeling about their roles. And that person is different from the strategy team and that I think I feel like there aren't a ton of models of that. So we're not really playing off some sort of playbook, but it feels right. And so that discussion that we're currently having of you know what would that look like and then what does the specific skill set need to be of the integrator? All integrators. And where do we find those people? That's his own genius. 

Jalen 

It sounds like kind of a coaching model. 

Vichi 

Yeah, just sort of separating out the coaching from the like project to management and you know, in that skill set, yeah. 

Jalen 

Right, right. When you talked about like, what they what could the art chart look like that that's something that's still kind of like forming, right? Now, huh? 

Vichi 

So we, like I said, we're team four now and we do have a large part time staff which also I think is an interesting. It's an interesting thing that we did and perhaps are outgrowing. But with that, it's a relatively flat org structure I would say. And I think what we found is like currently the people that do the best or fairly. Managed because most of us don't have a lot of that coaching expertise and I don't think that's where we want to ultimately get to like, I think we want to be an org where people can. Come in, not necessarily. Having built every skill, but can feel like they're supported and grow and stay for a long time. I don't think we're that order right now and that's, you know, we're doing great at that size. But in order to get there, I think the structure needs to change. 

Jalen 

I mean, I think you already so spoke to this, but what do you feel like your next step is in in developing this? 

Vichi 

Organization on the talent side, I think the next step really is getting clear on. The what, the skills and role of this integrator look like and finding, finding that person or people and then I mean I think from there. Basically, a lot of inefficiency in a lot of different areas. And so I think with that person and potentially some other really expert consultants then trying to hone in on what are the things that we're doing that maybe are easy to do, but not super helpful to the organization. And then what are the things we're avoiding doing or not doing because they're? But critical and really finding the right folks whose own genius is that so trying to build a team that's more like specific. And targeted on the next steps of our business rather than. You know, kind of this very hodgepodge, large group of folks currently working on things, but not necessarily in the most like strategic aligned way. 

Jalen 

Really sounds like a a very creative process. It's like it's like there isn't a template out there. And it seems like you're having to like try to. Sculpt it. 

Vichi 

Yeah, I feel like that's a lot of things. I mean, that's part of the fun. I think of starting your own business. I remember one set when I started it. One of the things we wrote down was we wanted to build a work environment that we love working at. And so it's come up a lot and. As the team goes, it continues to come up where everybody has like a worse job story. I hated my old job because they did X, so they did Y and it's surprising how much of that stuff there is. So it's almost like. At every turn. When we get the chance to take a step. That comes up, we're like, ah, well, I hate it at my old job, how it was super hierarchical. And I had this manager who like, never had time for me. So then we're like, OK, let's not do that. But then you find out that lots of jobs. Are like that. So what? What can be different or oh, you know, I hated. Yeah, everyone's got. I hated my last job. And so we're really, I think the sculpting is really trying to be intentional about that and saying OK. What needs to be different to not replicate that and very often there isn't a playbook or it's hard to find the other folks who are thinking that way. 

Jalen 

So if we want. To come back to the whole concept of being a boss. In this moment, what would you say? What are the ingredients? Or the experience of being a boss at this. Point for you. 

Vichi 

So my take away is I don't want to be one, but yeah, I guess I think that it it sort of starts with asking a question of. And it might be true that we can be a boss at some things at some moments, but maybe something changes or the organization grows and you know, I at least don't feel like I'm still the person that should be the boss in that situation. And so I think a lot of it. To me, has been rather than assuming like I was the boss, then I should be that forever really taking a step back and saying, you know what, what does the organization need right now? And who has that and what's my role? Maybe it isn't, boss. Maybe it's the person over here that thinks about strategy and then funnels that up to the boss, who can support the rest of the team. 

Jalen 

Right. And also I mean from what you're saying, it also sounds it is a question. Is like the boss of what? Right, because they're all these different areas that need attention and need to be served. And something. I'm coming. Away with is like there's this. Clear recognition within your. That that needs need to be met, and that's the most important thing. And I wonder, as a founder, do you feel yourself sort of aligning in a particular place? Like what do you do? You have a sense of the the most important things that you have to continue to bring to the organization. As it evolves, yeah, I mean. 

Vichi 

I think for me, my genius. Has always been strategy and so it's easy for me to see kind of programmatically what. The organization needs to do next. You know we need to grow in these ways. We need to expand to new geographies. You know, I can tell oftentimes, you know which programs we should continue doing, maybe things we just stop doing that feels like especially at this stage where we're kind of growing from a. New start up to more of operating at a larger scale. I have a ton of energy around thinking through that part. And I think that actually like one thing that's kind of held. Us back is that in order to realize those visions, we do need more capacity and more talent, but because we, because it's been me and Seth doing that and we've had so many stumbling blocks, it's like made it hard to be able to make progress in the strategic part because we're constantly coming back to say oh wait. We have our person in place for this. So this is a mess. You know, we need to figure that out. So I'm energized by the world where there are folks working on that so that it can kind of create the foundation for me and you know, other folks who are working on strategy to think about. What we want to do next in terms of. Our actual programs. 

Jalen 

One of the things that is often seen as being a role of leadership is holding the vision, holding and communicating. The vision is that something that that is present or that is that just an assumption? 

Vichi 

Yeah, I think that is I think both Seth and I have aspects of kind of Co creating and holding and communicating and just getting people on the same page about the vision. And I think that has gotten harder. That's another piece that I probably underestimated as. You grow a team. Team making sure that everybody has a shared understanding of that isn't really an assumption you. Can make and. There's so much history and unsaid stuff in our heads that a lot of times, you know, we think. Of course, like. Everyone knows all this stuff and then. Someone will do something and ask us like. Oh, why do we always do? It this way and. I'm like, well, that's a good question actually like. I don't know, just cause we always. Have so in many ways I think that's a that is an important role and it's a growing one. If we think about doing more work in more places with more people, have really and not just holding it in our own heads, but getting clearer about extracting that and saying it and building buying among people about what it is. 

Jalen 

And so now that you've gone through all the journey that you have, you have a sense of where you're where you're trying to go now. Is there anything that you would offer in a younger organization that's sort of heading to where you are? Any tips or words of wisdom that you like to offer? 

Vichi 

Yeah, I mean, I. Think one thing I would say is to really get clear on peoples zones. Genius again. The people already on board what are like rather than expecting everyone to get good at everything. What do the people already on the team have extreme strengths in and how can you help them grow into roles where they're doing more of that and then identifying OK, they might be OK at something. Maybe they're currently doing it. But they're not that. Isn't the thing that really lights a fire? Those are the areas where you want to be cultivating future talent and I. Think recognizing them. And having those, even if you're not hiring or. Ready to hire? Just kind of having those conversations to understand currently like where do people want to grow into and then what holes is that? Going to leave can help. Just focus the talent conversation early so you aren't in the position where you suddenly realize you need a marketing person tomorrow and then it rushes all process or somebody on the team plugs in the gap. And that's like where the challenges start. But I think the more we've had conversations early about people strengths like a people love exploring that it's really energizing to learn that you're. You know above average, strong at something and and to imagine a world where you're doing. That more, but it also, you know, helps us easily see OK, there isn't although. This person is doing this. Probably in the future that's not going to be their job, so we're going. To need to think about that. 

Jalen 

Have you found any particular approach to identifying people's zoning genius to be more effective? 

Vichi 

Yeah, we've tried a lot of things and we've used a lot of those, you know, online quizzes and stuff like, yeah, there's a disk DIC asset. 

Jalen 

Strength Finder. 

Vichi 

And there's actually a some kind of tool that tells you if you're, uh, they break it into like visionary or integrator. And that's kind of where the integrator term I think comes from. So we've done a bunch of these different ones. I think what's more helpful, like any of them is fine. And I think oftentimes what ends up being the most. Helpful is pairing that. With hearing people's self reflections. Because I like once it tends to be, I feel like like once people have taken the quiz and read everything, it's going to be obvious. Like, it'll jump out to them of like what it thinks I'm good at this. I hate that. Or, like, here's all the times I've settled. But this like this I'm awesome. Like here's all the time. I think it's right. It's more like a starting point. But once that's there, it almost creates the IT gives people permission. To really start to speak upon. OK, I can say I'm allowed to say in. This space but I. Think I'm really good at and it's not going to be me bragging. It's not like I have a big ego like I we're all taking this quiz and talking about it. It's also OK for me to say. The quiz that I'm good at this but. I hate it. And maybe I would have said that before. So I think the tools, there's a ton of them, but we've had really good results even if it's just an hour of like having people do those things and then come together for an hour and just share what were their reactions to it, you know. What do I select? Resonate, what do I click? Where would I like? To grow and it's like from that you get a ton of information both about individuals but also the rest of the teams are to understand like, OK, this is kind of who. I can call on for different things. 

Jalen 

And so do. You have those conversations at this point. Are you having those conversations? At at at. The hiring point. Or what? What point are you having? 

Vichi 

That's a great question. Yeah, we have started to ask like finalist candidates to submit one of those results and it's it's a topic of discussion in the interview. And I think that gives us some sense of just so people's openness, you know, are they open to this way of thinking? Do they, you know, have a growth mindset about different skills and kind of believe that very everybody has a strength and it might vary, but really it where it happens more so is like with the team currently we do quarterly reflection. Part of that is on performance. You know people set goals we look. At all that stuff. And and look at our business. You know the state of the business, but there is a part of that that's more so personal and in those places we do, you know some discussion of strengths. If there's new team members, you know they have a chance to hear from people and share, and then also talk about just kind of share feedback other. Other people will share kind of where they see teammates really glowing and showing up, and then they might also share suggestions for, you know, areas of growth. And that is like an ongoing discussion. So if somebody in one quarter kind of names a strength that they want to grow into everybody else in the team can now start thinking like, OK, where do I see that? Planning and in the following quarters can offer, hey, you said this last time and I really know. Just you stepping up in these ways and you know I came across this conference that might be good for you to attend. You could learn how to do this additional skill so it. Comes up, we. Kind of do it consistently because I think it's always an ever changing conversation. It does start at the interview, but it's more more once you're within I think. 

Jalen 

And it sounds like you're having like a collective open conversation about this, not like formalized 360 assessment. 

Vichi 

Yeah, we haven't. I think that this is another thing that people hate about their jobs. What what? What did people hate about their old jobs? Performance reviews, like everybody hates that and they're like, somebody once said performance reviews are. Just an excuse, like a way to justify firing people and. Everything somebody said that we have been like, oh, let's not do that. I think in in one sense like we haven't done that. So we have a lot of sort of open qualitative conversations that are more like truly reflective. And I think we could do more of the performance tracking and reflection, not like I don't want to replicate. Documentation of other people have it, but at the same time I think that is part of this idea of supporting people to hit milestones to grow, and we're not. We don't quite have that system in place yet, although it's something that we've been talking about, so hopefully we can get there. 

Jalen 

Right. So the interesting thing you'll be to see like as you as you continue to grow, how can you keep the same level of open sharing and exploration because that sounds like a that sounds like an important ingredient for your group right now. 

Vichi 

That's like a, I think a key part of the culture. And it does get tricky like as you grow and put in more systems, how do we preserve that and also try to alleviate people just come in with a lot of fear from old jobs of like, they're always on the chopping block. And any time by, say anything, if I admit any sort of vulnerability, if somebody gives me feedback that does that mean I'm going to be fired? And so really trying to make it safe that that's not what we're doing. This is, is is something that I think we need. To it's a balance that we need to figure out. 

Jalen 

Yeah, that they're making it safe. That that's a, that's a huge thing because, you know people. Income are on the line or they are their investment in what they're doing is on the line, right. And so I have, I'm guessing how you're contributing to make it safe, but like what are you doing? 

Vichi 

In some ways, it has been by showing it there's been a couple of times it's happened where somebody, somebody on the team has. Shared something with, you know their manager, me or. Seth or whoever. One example would be someone shared that they. I guess yeah, there's. A lot, but we'll go with this one. They a couple of years ago asked. Us why we weren't. Observing Juneteenth, this is like before, it was a national holiday, and then you know, they're like, oh, I know you're not observing it. And I think you. Really should For these reasons and. It was a couple of days before June 10th, like 3 or 4 maybe. And we, you know, so then I. Wait a quick. Talk about it and then we were like, yeah, let's. We should observe it. So we just emailed out everyone and we were like, hey, you know, someone brought this your attention that we're observing the holiday and and pulled, you know, did some research on kind of different messages to. Use and stuff. And I remember them coming back and saying, like, wow, I didn't. I've never worked at a place where I could give a suggestion like that and actually have them. And do something about it so quickly, like she was like, I genuinely didn't think you were gonna do anything. I just felt that I. Needed to say it and. She was like. I actually wasn't sure if I was going to get in some sort of trouble for that. But I just said it anyway and. I was like. Wow that to. It wasn't that big a deal. But that sort of stuff comes up a fair amount where I think they people are genuinely skeptical and they. To be and we have to prove it like we can say it all the time. Oh, we're safe and it's OK. You can do this. You can do that but. You know, for a good. Reason again, I think people have their guard up and it is. And until we consistently demonstrate that we mean what we say that folks start to believe it. And then I think as there are more and more people on. The team board buying in. Then it sort of you know becomes this shared thing. So new folks come in and they don't hear it just from one person, but they're meeting 4 teammates. Who are all kind of showing and sharing and doing the same thing that feels way safer than like ohh the boss is saying that, but I don't really feel like everyone believes it. So yeah, it really has been just trying to be consistent and responsive and practice what we preach. 

Jalen 

Yeah, that's definitely a form of leadership there. 

Vichi 

Like a boss another way. 

Jalen 

Well, Vichi, I'm really grateful for all that you shared. It seems like there's been a really rich conversation about not just being a boss, but like the growing into and maybe out of being a boss, you know... and I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much. 

Vichi 

Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me.